Future of Work 
Basecamp’s Jason Fried in a Special Interview with Matt Carlson, about the evolution of remote work and where Jason sees it heading.
Long before Covid and the words “work from home” entered our collective lexicon, Jason Fried was an expert on the subject of remote work. Having co-founded legendary software company Basecamp, Jason and his team have challenged the notion that an office is necessary for business success.
Remote for more than a decade, Basecamp has attracted a lean and loyal workforce through the simple concept that great work can happen anywhere. Passionate about empowering other teams to do the same, Jason and his co-founder David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH) penned their remote work lessons in the bestselling book Remote (among other best-sellers).
Matt Carlson: Jason, thanks for joining today, I’m very excited about this interview! I have kind of a random question – is there a term people use to refer to you and your expertise on remote work, like the “Godfather of Remote Work” or a fun term like this?
Jason Fried: [LAUGHS] when it comes to remote work, I think the author of Remote and Rework is more humble…but you can call me whatever you want. We’ve been doing this for 20 years, so I see why terms like that have been used.
MC: Tell us about your team today. How many people do you have? Where are they based? And how are you generally making it work at Basecamp?
JF: We have around 40 people. Most of our team is based in the US but we’re getting close to being split between the US and Europe and several others elsewhere in the world. We’ve been this way since the start. We grew up remotely so to speak.
MC: Where do you personally tend to work geographically? And do you have a morning routine that you set for yourself to get ready for the day when you’re not in a physical office?
JF: I work from my home office for the most part. Most of our employees have either a little home office space or they would co-work before Covid. I have two young kids so my morning routine is chaotic. Once our seven-year-old goes to school at 8:30am things tend to calm down a bit. I tend to start work shortly after that.
At the moment though, my business partner David (DHH) is back in Copenhagen which means my days start earlier right now because we only have a few hours of overlap in the morning. I get up around 6:30am and check in with him first because his day usually ends around 10:00am my time. Normally, when he’s stateside I’ll generally start my day around 9:00am.
MC: Switching to your book, Remote. One thing that I found really interesting was your discussions about the objections to remote work; specifically related to innovation, productivity, culture, and trust. All of those same issues are being addressed today because of the pandemic. How is that discussion different today than it was eight years ago when you wrote the book?
JF: I think the myth has been busted that remote work doesn’t work. For information-based work, people are now realizing that not only is it possible, but it’s also quite effective. It has its pros and cons of course, but it’s doable.
I think the biggest change is this recognition that yes, this is possible for all kinds of companies now. At the same time, those old same objections still exist, typically with managers who worry how they’ll be able to tell if people are doing their work if they can’t physically see them. Our answer is, what does ‘seeing’ someone, and seeing their back at a computer or hands on a keyboard, have to do with whether or not they’re doing their work? And at the end of the day, you just have to look at their work to know if they’re doing their work.
Our answer is, what does ‘seeing’ someone, and seeing their back at a computer or hands on a keyboard, have to do with whether or not they’re doing their work?
Jason Fried, Co-founder and CEO of Basecamp
MC: In your book, you talk about testing remote work on a trial period of 3+ months. Because we were forced into it, do you think the world has picked up any bad habits that we should change or might continue?
JF: Yes, many. The biggest problem is that a lot of companies think that remote work is simply local working remotely.
What I mean by that is that they’ve just moved the office online. When you do that it makes things quite a bit worse. So companies that used to have a lot of meetings in-person, now have a lot of meetings over Zoom.
What companies need to realize is that remote work is a completely different mindset and way of working. It’s not the same way you worked before, just remotely.
Effective remote work is about more asynchronous communication, less real-time collaboration, and completing tasks and then sharing them with your team online through tools like Basecamp. Remote work is a very different mindset. It’s more about trust and autonomy. If you want to be effective at remote work, you have to approach it completely differently. If you’re just trying to assimilate being in the office, you might as well be in the office.
MC: You’ve referred to the office as an ‘interruption factory’, a place where people can come in at any point and disrupt your workflow. In a remote setting, we’re constantly being pinged on our phones or having to switch between different apps. Do you think we’ve substituted one interruption factory for a new one?
JF: In a way, but I think you have more control over those interruptions when you have more control over your physical space. A lot of people don’t have control over their surroundings in an office in the same way that you do in your own space at home. Of course, if you’re at home and you have kids or other people in the house that are making a bunch of noise, that can be a distraction too.
But generally, at home, you have more control over the things in your space, the way your space is laid out, and the furniture you work from. In a lot of offices, like those with a cubicle-style layout, the setting is pre-determined for an employee. And that layout may not necessarily work for everyone. At home you have greater control over everything, you can set your work setting in a way that best works for you and you can mute those digital notifications. That greater control can significantly minimize interruptions.
If you’re just trying to assimilate being in the office, you might as well be in the office.
Jason Fried, Co-founder and CEO of Basecamp
MC: A client of ours recently mentioned that employees are reevaluating their emotional contract with their employers as a result of Covid. Do you have any thoughts on this and how it might tie into what some people are calling the ‘Great Resignation’?
JF: I mean people still have to work so I’m not really sure what the Great Resignation is all about. Perhaps it will be more of a Great Migration from employers who aren’t going to be flexible to those that are.
I don’t really like the term resignation as it suggests that people aren’t working, which just won’t happen. People have mortgages and bills to pay. I think this shake-up is giving people more options and I think that is good. Employees have more options in where they want to work and employers have more options for who they can hire and where they can find talent. We just hired six new programmers and they all happen to be based in the EU. Why should we limit ourselves to just hiring people who live nearby?
MC: With more companies hiring remotely, what’s the best way to compete for talent?
JF: At Basecamp, we pay the same salary for a role regardless of where an employee is based. You could live in a country with a low standard of living and you would get paid the same as someone in the same role living in a busy city like San Francisco. That approach helps us stay competitive in some measure.
Ultimately though, it comes down to the work that someone gets to do and the autonomy they’re given to perform that work. People want to know they’re making an impact and that they’re working with great people. That’s a big part of what people are looking for today when they choose a company. It’s not just about salary.
MC: With respect to office space, some people are giving it up altogether but not everyone is giving up their office space. You’ve written about the purpose of the office in the past. Going forward, what do you think will be the primary purpose of the office?
JF: I think the office is a valuable place and I see a lot of value in face time and in people getting together. I think we’re going to see a lot of hybrid situations and I think we’re going to see a lot of change in the way people think of office spaces.
There won’t necessarily be reserved desks for everyone because some people may not be there every day but there will be more communal spaces. That’s something we noticed that’s been missing. Pandemic aside, people want to get together socially as a group more frequently. Not necessarily to work at desks, that’s not the important part. People need the ability to come together socially, and this is especially important when everyone is working primarily remotely.
When you don’t have those moments, a little bit of humanity is lost. People don’t necessarily understand each other as easily when they don’t have the chance to come together, each lunch together and smile together.
Jason Fried, Co-founder and CEO of Basecamp
When you don’t have those moments a little bit of humanity is lost. People don’t necessarily understand each other as easily when they don’t have the chance to come together, eat lunch together and smile together. I think offices, or spaces, or whatever they’re going to be called serve a very important purpose. Companies will just need to rethink what they’re for.
MC: For companies that are planning on using a hybrid or flex model, is there a right way and a wrong way to make use of that new approach?
JF: The challenge with hybrid is determining what your culture is going to be. Will it favour those that come into the office? Will it be a local culture primarily? Or will it be a remote culture?
My suggestion is to work as though you’re remote and build up those practices and the ability to work asynchronously and autonomously and infuse a lot more trust into the organization. And then when you get together it’s a little bit of a bonus. It’s not a necessity. Build a really remote resilient company that knows how to work remotely and then your in-person moments will be like a cherry on top.
MC: If you had an opportunity to invest in an office building today, would you?
JF: [laughs], that’s a good question…I don’t think offices are going away. That said, I probably wouldn’t invest in a space today simply because I don’t know how long this pandemic is going to go on.
MC: The pandemic has caused a lot of people to leave urban centers. Do you have a sense of how this pandemic will affect major cities going forward?
JF: I think cities will always be attractive, especially for young people. It’s where the energy is, it’s where the convenience is. So I’m bullish on cities long-term. That said, I think there are a lot of advantages of not being in cities as well. People are beginning to realize that quiet and having more room outside are really nice qualities that you might not necessarily have in a city.
But I think that choice of where to live has a lot to do with where you are in life. If you have kids you might want more room than you can get in the city or you might not want city traffic. If you’re 21 and just coming out of school, you’re probably not thinking of wanting more space. You’re probably thinking of living in your 20s surrounded by people of the same age and you’re most likely to find that in a densely populated area. Overall, I think this is a moment that has given people who didn’t necessarily want to live in the city any longer a really nice excuse to go somewhere else.
I’m a little bit nervous that remote work could become more popular, based on companies looking to save money vs. as a way to improve work, which is how we approach remote work at Basecamp.
Jason Fried, Co-founder and CEO of Basecamp
MC: If you look forward 2 years from today, what does the landscape of remote work look like in your opinion?
JF: I think we’ll see a return to the office for a lot of companies, but I think we’ll also see a lot of more progressive companies seeing the advantages that come with being able to hire people from many places.
What I don’t want to see is companies beginning to give different salaries for the same role based on an employee’s location. Pay shouldn’t be based on location, it should be based on the work someone does. You’re hiring the person, you’re not hiring the zip code. I’m a little bit nervous that remote work could become more popular, based on companies looking to save money vs. as a way to improve work, which is how we approach remote work at Basecamp.
MC: Thanks again for the insights, Jason! Final question before we go: given that you’re working remotely, have you or would you ever take yourself on a remote sabbatical? And if so, where in the world would you go?
JF: I haven’t done that but I’ve been thinking about it. We want to go down to New Zealand at some point as it’s supposed to be really beautiful. If we went, because it’s so far, we’d probably go for two months and I probably wouldn’t work. We also spent time in Amsterdam a few years ago and really enjoyed it. If we went back I would probably try to tie that into a month or more off work to just sink into a new city.
Thanks again for having me today. I really enjoyed it. Great questions!
